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Monday, May 25, 2009
Sources
Though the M-word was not used, sources I have that are usually reliable say that Roh Moohyun's death was not a suicide.
I don't really have anything to say about it. Shocking, but not surprising, I guess, if that makes sense.
However, if somebody did pull some funny business to try and kill the former president, that's about the dumbest political move you could make. I have a feeling this summer Korea will explode with protests and activity, the likes of which will make the beef protests seem like a block party.
Sources? Was one of Roh's bodyguards a former drinking buddy of yours? Was it someone from the inner circle of the highest political echelons of Korea who regularly shares information with random grad students with a blog? A lesbian Republican who knows just a bit more than nada for a select few?
Ah, Scott, there's so much about what I do/have done and who I know/have known that you don't know. And apparently there's stuff you think you know about me that you actually don't.
If the testimony of witnesses to an event were the only way of determining the facts of an event, we'd have no such shows as CSI, Law & Order, or Cold Case now, would we?
I don't know what happened and I am not claiming to know. If someone laid out the case that it was definitely a suicide, I could point out several loose ends to that story that make me at least curious or a bit too hesitant to accept that as a slam dunk. But if someone laid out a detailed case of it being a homicide or even an accident, the devil's advocate in me could point out the holes in that version as well.
I don't know what to believe. But I'm not a "truther" if I ask questions about the situation.
If it were a premeditated suicide, why such a terse note to one's family?
Whether he's a flight risk or a deject person suffering under the weight of the investigation, why would he have just one bodyguard assigned to him?
Why were the police so quick to label it a suicide, without investigation of a suicide note left on a computer? Particularly in a country where the untimely deaths of past presidents were well-known for having involved cover-up?
A lot of things don't add up, but that just makes the suicide prospect less likely, not unlikely or impossible.
i think when i first heard the news my gut also felt a little off, and things didn't seem quite right. it's not very objective but sometimes our intuition is better at sifting through the varied strands that connect to the truth than relying on the rope that is being handed to us.
"Gut feelings can be a powerful things — and often quite accurate."
That's why you're a blogger and not a real journalist.
Roh's suicide had two immensely attractive pay-offs: Benefitting his family by halting the prosecution's investigation, as well as the liberal/progressive forces, by immediately putting the government on the defensive and empowering his political allies just in time for Korea's annual summer of discontent.
Your paranoid conspiracy theories clearly fall into the second scenario, by using unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo to discredit, presumably, the present administration.
Note: I am not the "Scott" who posted above, though I did use the same ID in the past here.
King Baeksu wrote: "Gut feelings can be a powerful things — and often quite accurate."
That's why you're a blogger and not a real journalist.
And a hearty fuck you to you, too. This is a blog, not a news report. If I were involved in a news program, I would not report a gut feeling at all. In fact, I think I just stated — though somewhat opaquely — that my gut feelings are not reliable.
This type of post would never make it into any report of mine if I were in a news venue. In fact, one of my biggest criticisms of the Western press is that their reporting of Korea is a grand circle jerk consisting of gut feelings among the 18th floor crowd.
Roh's suicide had two immensely attractive pay-offs: Benefitting his family by halting the prosecution's investigation, as well as the liberal/progressive forces, by immediately putting the government on the defensive and empowering his political allies just in time for Korea's annual summer of discontent.
Yes, but at a severe cost to the beneficiary. Who kills themselves so their family might be able to keep a minor fortune and to embarrass enemies? Some would, but not many. That's a weak explanation even though, as I stated, I believe it's the probable case.
Your paranoid conspiracy theories clearly fall into the second scenario, by using unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo to discredit, presumably, the present administration.
Good job trying to put words in my mouth or motives in my mind.
Again, I have no conspiracy theory whatsoever. The most I am doing is saying that the official story is less than convincing, to a lot of people.
I don't like the chinbo types any more than you do, KB. But it's not the chinbo types alone who feel uneasy about this. Since I'm not on the ground there, I've made a point of contacting a lot of people about this, and even the ones who never cared for RMH as a politician feel very uneasy about the official story.
Note: I am not the "Scott" who posted above, though I did use the same ID in the past here.
I didn't think you were. That's someone quite different. Scott is an advocate of LSD usage who thinks I shouldn't talk about drug legalization.
Two things about the late scandel are surprising: 1. He was a lawyer. When acused with a crime, the first thing ANY lawyer tells you is to SHUT UP AND NOT TALK. But he admitted culpability on his homepage. 2. The Korean people elected a mentally unstable man to the presidency (not the first time). Now, I know what you all are thinking: How does he know he was unstable mentally. It is my personal view that anyone who kills themself has long harboured menatl illness; sane people do not destroy themselves. 99.995% of living species on earth do not kill themselves. Even a kitten will viciously attack being killed. "The smallest worm will turn, being trodden on."
Kushi, Dont even respond to stoopid comments from people, especially those professing to be the leader of the unemployed, like Dennis Leary in Demolition Man?
Kushibo, I was the same Scott who defended usage of LSD here a while ago. I changed my ID a couple of weeks ago mainly by accident after updating my Gmail account.
When you mention murder obviously someone has to be the murderer and have a motive for doing so. Without mentioning the possible suspect(s), you are indeed indirectly impugning the government, since they're main target of those calling Roh's death "political murder" at the moment.
Nb, aren't you the freak with that despicable Korea hate site? Get your head fixed, man.
I didn't read all the comments on here, so if somebody said the same thing, sorry. But I was considering the "possibility" also that it was a planned murder when I spoke with my parents, but that was quickly rejected as they point out he was severely depressed and shamed by recent events and even left a suicide note (as if that proves anything). However, one thing I do know...the result is that his suicide has allowed the country to kinda sorta forgive him and feel bad for him and it saved the butts of his wife and son...who are now off the hook, as I understand it. So, hey!...it worked, whether a suicide or murder. It's just a national (and ethnic) embarrassment when a country's ex-Prez commits suicide.
so today's announcement that the bodyguard wasn't with roh moo hyun at the time of his death may be an interesting plot twist....
also isn't it far fetched to assume the roh knew the investigations would be dropped with his death. considering that he viewed these trials as a political attack by his enemies what guarantee did he have that everything would go away with his death...? the people that benefit the most from this bribery case going away is not his family but the other suspects who haven't even been questioned yet. it has been suggested that park yeon-cha bribed not only the associates of the former president but also other conservative and liberal members of the assembly during the 2007 elections. it will be interesting to see if only the investigation of the roh family is dropped or the entire park yeon-cha bribery case is dropped...
as a side note, it's strange how some people always take any dissenting, alternative view of an issue as if it's a personal attack on them. they often respond violently, dismissively and with great anger as if attacks have been made on their faith and world view... these folks are usually also people that insist that they are defenders of freedom, liberty and truth. shouldn't such individuals encourage diversity of views and allow the weight of the evidence to sway people toward their own truth. sadly they usually try to ban alternate, minority views (through censorship) or dismiss them as the rantings of conspiracy nut-jobs.
"shouldn't such individuals encourage diversity of views and allow the weight of the evidence to sway people toward their own truth."
Still waiting to hear who the "murder(s)" was/were.
Still waiting for Kushibo to produce a smoking gun that backs up his initial "M" claim at the top of this post.
Still waiting for the "truth."
"also isn't it far fetched to assume the roh knew the investigations would be dropped with his death. "
Victimology is Korea's dominant ideology. By transforming himself into a "victim" through suicide, he knew exactly what he was doing. He was a freakin' politician, after all.
Still waiting to hear who the "murder(s)" was/were. Still waiting for Kushibo to produce a smoking gun that backs up his initial "M" claim at the top of this post. Still waiting for the "truth.
as importantly, some of us are also still waiting for all the facts that prove that it was in fact a suicide. but we are all waiting for the truth. let's be patient and not shoot down any leads no matter how much it may upset people.
Victimology is Korea's dominant ideology. By transforming himself into a "victim" through suicide, he knew exactly what he was doing. was this in some cia factbook or official brochure that i didn't get when i got off the plane at incheon airport? did some official news source, or journalist inform you of this universal korean trait? i think on our off days we can all be guilty of confusing our biased opinions as facts... no?
I don't really have anything to say about it. Shocking, but not surprising, I guess, if that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if somebody did pull some funny business to try and kill the former president, that's about the dumbest political move you could make. I have a feeling this summer Korea will explode with protests and activity, the likes of which will make the beef protests seem like a block party.
Sources? Was one of Roh's bodyguards a former drinking buddy of yours? Was it someone from the inner circle of the highest political echelons of Korea who regularly shares information with random grad students with a blog? A lesbian Republican who knows just a bit more than nada for a select few?
ReplyDeleteLet the Truther movement begin. I'm in.
Ah, Scott, there's so much about what I do/have done and who I know/have known that you don't know. And apparently there's stuff you think you know about me that you actually don't.
ReplyDeleteIf the testimony of witnesses to an event were the only way of determining the facts of an event, we'd have no such shows as CSI, Law & Order, or Cold Case now, would we?
I don't know what happened and I am not claiming to know. If someone laid out the case that it was definitely a suicide, I could point out several loose ends to that story that make me at least curious or a bit too hesitant to accept that as a slam dunk. But if someone laid out a detailed case of it being a homicide or even an accident, the devil's advocate in me could point out the holes in that version as well.
I don't know what to believe. But I'm not a "truther" if I ask questions about the situation.
If it were a premeditated suicide, why such a terse note to one's family?
If one had a reasonable expectation to be rehabilitated, based on past rulers' far worse crimes, why off oneself?
Whether he's a flight risk or a deject person suffering under the weight of the investigation, why would he have just one bodyguard assigned to him?
Why were the police so quick to label it a suicide, without investigation of a suicide note left on a computer? Particularly in a country where the untimely deaths of past presidents were well-known for having involved cover-up?
A lot of things don't add up, but that just makes the suicide prospect less likely, not unlikely or impossible.
i think when i first heard the news my gut also felt a little off, and things didn't seem quite right. it's not very objective but sometimes our intuition is better at sifting through the varied strands that connect to the truth than relying on the rope that is being handed to us.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, yeejin, I don't think this passes the smell test. And I say that even though I think it's probable he really did kill himself.
ReplyDeleteGut feelings can be a powerful things — and often quite accurate.
Unfortunately for me, lactose intolerance often interferes with my gut feelings. Sometimes when I'm uncomfortable about something, it's just dairy.
"Gut feelings can be a powerful things — and often quite accurate."
ReplyDeleteThat's why you're a blogger and not a real journalist.
Roh's suicide had two immensely attractive pay-offs: Benefitting his family by halting the prosecution's investigation, as well as the liberal/progressive forces, by immediately putting the government on the defensive and empowering his political allies just in time for Korea's annual summer of discontent.
Your paranoid conspiracy theories clearly fall into the second scenario, by using unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo to discredit, presumably, the present administration.
Note: I am not the "Scott" who posted above, though I did use the same ID in the past here.
King Baeksu wrote:
ReplyDelete"Gut feelings can be a powerful things — and often quite accurate."
That's why you're a blogger and not a real journalist.
And a hearty fuck you to you, too. This is a blog, not a news report. If I were involved in a news program, I would not report a gut feeling at all. In fact, I think I just stated — though somewhat opaquely — that my gut feelings are not reliable.
This type of post would never make it into any report of mine if I were in a news venue. In fact, one of my biggest criticisms of the Western press is that their reporting of Korea is a grand circle jerk consisting of gut feelings among the 18th floor crowd.
Roh's suicide had two immensely attractive pay-offs: Benefitting his family by halting the prosecution's investigation, as well as the liberal/progressive forces, by immediately putting the government on the defensive and empowering his political allies just in time for Korea's annual summer of discontent.
Yes, but at a severe cost to the beneficiary. Who kills themselves so their family might be able to keep a minor fortune and to embarrass enemies? Some would, but not many. That's a weak explanation even though, as I stated, I believe it's the probable case.
Your paranoid conspiracy theories clearly fall into the second scenario, by using unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo to discredit, presumably, the present administration.
Good job trying to put words in my mouth or motives in my mind.
Again, I have no conspiracy theory whatsoever. The most I am doing is saying that the official story is less than convincing, to a lot of people.
I don't like the chinbo types any more than you do, KB. But it's not the chinbo types alone who feel uneasy about this. Since I'm not on the ground there, I've made a point of contacting a lot of people about this, and even the ones who never cared for RMH as a politician feel very uneasy about the official story.
Note: I am not the "Scott" who posted above, though I did use the same ID in the past here.
I didn't think you were. That's someone quite different. Scott is an advocate of LSD usage who thinks I shouldn't talk about drug legalization.
Apologies for the "fuck you," Scott, but don't come in and start hurling insults.
ReplyDeleteTwo things about the late scandel are surprising:
ReplyDelete1. He was a lawyer. When acused with a crime, the first thing ANY lawyer tells you is to SHUT UP AND NOT TALK. But he admitted culpability on his homepage.
2. The Korean people elected a mentally unstable man to the presidency (not the first time). Now, I know what you all are thinking: How does he know he was unstable mentally.
It is my personal view that anyone who kills themself has long harboured menatl illness; sane people do not destroy themselves. 99.995% of living species on earth do not kill themselves. Even a kitten will viciously attack being killed.
"The smallest worm will turn, being trodden on."
Kushi,
ReplyDeleteDont even respond to stoopid comments from people, especially those professing to be the leader of the unemployed, like Dennis Leary in Demolition Man?
Kushibo, I was the same Scott who defended usage of LSD here a while ago. I changed my ID a couple of weeks ago mainly by accident after updating my Gmail account.
ReplyDeleteWhen you mention murder obviously someone has to be the murderer and have a motive for doing so. Without mentioning the possible suspect(s), you are indeed indirectly impugning the government, since they're main target of those calling Roh's death "political murder" at the moment.
Nb, aren't you the freak with that despicable Korea hate site? Get your head fixed, man.
I didn't read all the comments on here, so if somebody said the same thing, sorry. But I was considering the "possibility" also that it was a planned murder when I spoke with my parents, but that was quickly rejected as they point out he was severely depressed and shamed by recent events and even left a suicide note (as if that proves anything). However, one thing I do know...the result is that his suicide has allowed the country to kinda sorta forgive him and feel bad for him and it saved the butts of his wife and son...who are now off the hook, as I understand it. So, hey!...it worked, whether a suicide or murder. It's just a national (and ethnic) embarrassment when a country's ex-Prez commits suicide.
ReplyDeleteso today's announcement that the bodyguard wasn't with roh moo hyun at the time of his death may be an interesting plot twist....
ReplyDeletealso isn't it far fetched to assume the roh knew the investigations would be dropped with his death. considering that he viewed these trials as a political attack by his enemies what guarantee did he have that everything would go away with his death...?
the people that benefit the most from this bribery case going away is not his family but the other suspects who haven't even been questioned yet. it has been suggested that park yeon-cha bribed not only the associates of the former president but also other conservative and liberal members of the assembly during the 2007 elections. it will be interesting to see if only the investigation of the roh family is dropped or the entire park yeon-cha bribery case is dropped...
as a side note, it's strange how some people always take any dissenting, alternative view of an issue as if it's a personal attack on them. they often respond violently, dismissively and with great anger as if attacks have been made on their faith and world view...
ReplyDeletethese folks are usually also people that insist that they are defenders of freedom, liberty and truth.
shouldn't such individuals encourage diversity of views and allow the weight of the evidence to sway people toward their own truth.
sadly they usually try to ban alternate, minority views (through censorship) or dismiss them as the rantings of conspiracy nut-jobs.
"shouldn't such individuals encourage diversity of views and allow the weight of the evidence to sway people toward their own truth."
ReplyDeleteStill waiting to hear who the "murder(s)" was/were.
Still waiting for Kushibo to produce a smoking gun that backs up his initial "M" claim at the top of this post.
Still waiting for the "truth."
"also isn't it far fetched to assume the roh knew the investigations would be dropped with his death. "
Victimology is Korea's dominant ideology. By transforming himself into a "victim" through suicide, he knew exactly what he was doing. He was a freakin' politician, after all.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting to hear who the "murder(s)" was/were.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting for Kushibo to produce a smoking gun that backs up his initial "M" claim at the top of this post.
Still waiting for the "truth.
as importantly, some of us are also still waiting for all the facts that prove that it was in fact a suicide.
but we are all waiting for the truth. let's be patient and not shoot down any leads no matter how much it may upset people.
Victimology is Korea's dominant ideology. By transforming himself into a "victim" through suicide, he knew exactly what he was doing. was this in some cia factbook or official brochure that i didn't get when i got off the plane at incheon airport? did some official news source, or journalist inform you of this universal korean trait?
i think on our off days we can all be guilty of confusing our biased opinions as facts... no?
"was this in some cia factbook or official brochure that i didn't get when i got off the plane at incheon airport?"
ReplyDeleteEvidently so.